What happens if the developers don't like the mod? Also then how would players pick and choose which mods to use?
What happens if the developers don't like the mod?
Software that is well-maintained should make its decisions based upon the consensus of the users.
Also then how would players pick and choose which mods to use?
If having such a choice would benefit the game (determined by the consensus of the users), it could be implemented as an optional thing.
a lot of mods would very much not fit in the main game
Then in that case, they fill a niche distinct from the original game, and would be perfect for a fork.
Software that is well-maintained should make its decisions based upon the consensus of the users.
That's a great idea but there will always be people who are unhappy no matter how you do it.
would be perfect for a fork.
What if you wanna run multiple of such forks together?
Software that is well-maintained should make its decisions based upon the consensus of the users.
That's a great idea but there will always be people who are unhappy no matter how you do it.
That's a rather pessimistic claim.
What if you wanna run multiple of such forks together?
That would seem to indicate that those forks are competing within the same niche and ought to be unified.
That's a rather pessimistic claim.
Have you... ever tried to get a large group of people to agree on something? It's nearly impossible.
at would seem to indicate that those forks are competing within the same niche and ought to be unified.
Not at all true, it's often fun to run many mods at once. In fact, people make modpacks to make doing exactly that much easier.
I feel like there isn't anything hard to understand about the fact that different people want different sets of features at different times and in different contexts, so they make this easy to achieve. it seems like you're just refusing to understand this.
agreeable
all reasonable discussion ended when bmh posted a link to a completely unrelated legal document about the law regarding forks in response to a valid point that a lot of forks would be an overwhelming choice to the user too
Have you... ever tried to get a large group of people to agree on something? It's nearly impossible.
I know it can be difficult sometimes. But i don't think it's anywhere close to impossible.
[[]Th[]]at would seem to indicate that those forks are competing within the same niche and ought to be unified.
Not at all true, it's often fun to run many mods at once. In fact, people make modpacks to make doing exactly that much easier.
That kind of unification of competition within a niche is exactly the type of thing that i was supporting in my original message.
[…]different people want different sets of features at different times and in different contexts, so [modding APIs] make this easy to achieve.
But modding APIs aren't the only way to allow that; having in-game settings available for changing small things and forks available for changing large things are another way. Modding APIs also bring downsides by being a complex subsystem of the project for the maintainers to deal with, taking away time that could be used to solve other problems in the software, and (in my experience) they often lead to fracturing of a community and too many options to choose from.
i feel like bees apioid beeoid. also, apioforms.
Foul! No non-sequiteurs!
all reasonable discussion ended when bmh posted a link to a completely unrelated legal document about the law regarding forks in response to a valid point that a lot of forks would be an overwhelming choice to the user too
Did you read the document? This is the second time that i have asked this.
hola a todos! ¿qué hacen?
using a modding API is a lot easier than forking an entire source tree and building the application yourself
also, a lot of modding APIs present a cleaner interface than directly editing the source would. they also allow mods to be written in languages other than the base language of the game. the language chosen is usually lua, which is basically perfect for modding APIs due to its simplicity and ease of embedding
also i read the page about forking and it seems to have little relevance here. it focuses entirely on tools, that is, software which performs work. games are entirely different, because they are intended to entertain.
while the quality of a tool is subjective (see vi/emacs debate), the quality of entertainment is much more so. hence, there will be many more modifications made to games than to tools. most of the examples given on the forking page were simple chains of forks getting incorporated back into the parent, or something dying and forking into two separate projects.
now, take a look at the amount of mods minecraft has. yes, minecraft is extremely popular and has a very large modding scene, and a libre game would probably have less mods, but the point still stands. folding every mod anyone has ever made back into the main branch and putting them under menu options would be hopelessly impractical to manage and it would push source tree and binary sizes through the roof, for features that a lot of players won't even use.
using a modding API is a lot easier than forking an entire source tree and building the application yourself
Why is that ease worth it?
also, a lot of modding APIs present a cleaner interface than directly editing the source would.
How do they do that?
also i read the page about forking and it seems to have little relevance here. it focuses entirely on tools, that is, software which performs work. games are entirely different, because they are intended to entertain.
I really don't like the mentality that video games are somehow special pieces of software. While it's true that the purpose of video games is to entertain, that doesn't mean that a video game can completely ignore the fundamental principles of software design (i've talked about this before as a part of this thing). The idea behind the page that "a fork of copylefted software cannot survive unless it fills a niche unique from the original software" is, i think, completely applicable to video games.
folding every mod anyone has ever made back into the main branch and putting under a menu option would be hopelessly impractical to manage and it would push source tree and binary sizes through the roof, for features that a lot of players won't even use.
Exactly, which is why i don't advocate for that. Only the mods that are good and are competing in the niche that the original software fills should be merged into the original software; mods that compete in other niches could be merged into forks if they happen to be good.
I really don't like the mentality that video games are somehow special pieces of software.
they aren't though? a lot of libre software has mods, they're just usually called "plugins"
I really don't like the mentality that video games are somehow special pieces of software.
they aren't though?
Exactly.
a lot of libre software has mods, they're just usually called "plugins"
I guess that a lot of my thoughts here on video game modding also apply to software plugins, and i just didn't realize. Funny how that works.
I know it can be difficult sometimes. But i don't think it's anywhere close to impossible.
Bmh, I work in a large group of people trying to accomplish one goal over the winter. Just about every year half of the team disagrees on the way it's going and the other half thinks the first half's idea awful. Yes, it is nearly impossible if not outright impossible
That kind of unification of competition within a niche is exactly the type of thing that i was supporting in my original message.
That's not at all what I was referring to. Many modpacks combine many trivially related mods. It's not as fun to play with 10 mods that all overhaul, say, caves, than 10 mods that each do different things.
I don't like the mentality that video games are somehow special pieces of software.
I'd argue that they are, like you said, they're meant to entertain, not be useful. If doing things differently than other softwares makes them be more entertaining, then so be it.
ok! plugins/add-ons/mods are much easier to manage and install and use than forks. anyone can drag a bunch of files into a folder, add things they want, or remove things they dont. modularity!
Exactly. You can only have one fork active at the same time, and gku are locked into what said fork provides.
ok! plugins/add-ons/mods are much easier to manage and install and use than forks. anyone can drag a bunch of files into a folder, add things they want, or remove things they dont. modularity!
Why is that worth the problems that a modding API creates?
What problems does it create? (You probably already said it but it would be nice to have it all in one place)
That kind of unification of competition within a niche is exactly the type of thing that i was supporting in my original message.
That's not at all what I was referring to. Many modpacks combine many trivially related mods. It's not as fun to play with 10 mods that all overhaul, say, caves, than 10 mods that each do different things.
That sounds like exactly what i'm referring to: unification of things within a niche.
[Video games a]re meant to entertain, not be useful.
That's not how i think of it. I would say the the usefulness of video games is that they're entertaining.
If doing things differently than other softwares makes them be more entertaining, then so be it.
Of course—the rules should be broken when it's beneficial for everyone.
(Also sorry for not replying to message #3874 earlier.)
What problems do[ modding APIs] create? (You probably already said it but it would be nice to have it all in one place)
Indeed i did, in #3822:
Modding APIs also bring downsides by being a complex subsystem of the project for the maintainers to deal with, taking away time that could be used to solve other problems in the software, and (in my experience) they often lead to fracturing of a community and too many options to choose from.
That sounds like exactly what i'm referring to: unification of things within a niche.
I... what... How do 10 very different mods all fill the same niche?
That's not how i think of it. I would say the the usefulness of video games is that they're entertaining.
Please try to convince literally any school of that.
How do 10 very different mods all fill the same niche?
They all play their part in filling the corners of the niche, so that the niche as a whole is filled.
That's not how i think of it. I would say the the usefulness of video games is that they're entertaining.
Please try to convince literally any school of that.
I mean, it's pretty simple: people need to be happy in order to be productive.
fragmentSagisces
(edited )
src
#3860
I mean, it's pretty simple: people need to be happy in order to be productive.
ahahhahahahhahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa they don't give a fuckkkkkkkk
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